If you have been spending any amount of time in the battlegrounds recently you know why I am asking this question. I have been inspired, once again, the excellent blogging by people out there is very cool and I have to thank Phaelia at Resto4Life for This Post. Where she posted about her thoughts on why the Horde always wins in PvP. I have to say I agree with everything she has to say for the most part, I too remember the days of the Tauren Mill raids and fighting back and forth from Southshore…ahh the days…
But, then came the battlegrounds, the place to go if you wanted to get into some real pvp action, the very long queues and somedays where I didn’t get into a battle because I would wait 2 hours and have to logoff the game…that sucked.
Fast forward to today, January 2008 and here we are with near to no wait time with the cross-realms bg’s helping that. But, where the alliance used to be able to count on Alterac Valley as a sure win, that isn’t really the case any longer…after not doing any type of PvP since pretty much March of 2007 I have found myself once again back in the battlegrounds…my impressions?
First, I am sooo grateful for the reduced queues, thank you, but, then we see the premade issues, where, for myself anyway, the Horde seem to have the upperhand, where out of 20 matches played, at least half of those the Horde had at least a party of 5 that were premade, then about 4 where the Alliance were premade, and the rest were just random people. The results were clear, 85% of the games I played it was a victory for the Horde. The few wins by the Alliance were either a very close victory, or I was in a BG with an Alliance premade, giving us an advantage. I was lucky enough to complete a couple daily quests with the wins we had, but let me say I felt the burning sting of defeat, and total ownage, and it doesn’t make me too happy about the whole ordeal.
I have a Troll Shaman who I spent quite a bit of time doing some PvP with a couple years ago and I remember how easy it was to accumulate honor points and improve his gear with little time invested.
I think Phaelia hits the nail on the head when she says,
Many of the best PvP players on Alliance rerolled to play with Horde, bolstering their faction’s collective expertise on the field of battle. Horde grew more seasoned more quickly because they could play more often. And once the ball was rolling in that direction, there was no stopping it. As most would attest, PvP is most fun when you’re winning. No one enjoys losing all the time. And so as veteran and newly-minted Horde won more and more games, more and more players were encouraged to reroll so that they too could experience the thrill of victory. Even today, players who are just beginning to play the game are told that, if they enjoy PvP, they should roll Horde characters, both for their superior PvP-based racial abilities and their winning records in Battlegrounds.
So, why does the alliance lose in the BG’s? I think the answer is quite simple, winning is more fun than losing, the Horde has been labeled as being the winners, so why would anyone wanting to kick ass in the battlegrounds roll a toon on the alliance side?
Something to think about. In the meantime I will keep playing my druid just because I enjoy being the underdog and I have the keep the faith that things can only get better…right?
Its all about team work. When me and my buddy that i play with que up we generally win a lot. However; if there are horde that que with parties of 4 or several parties of 2 then it becomes a little more tough. Me and my friend usually try to be flag runners in WSG and talk to the team calmly and try and get some kind of organized win to happen.
It’s a “winning team” mentality + new players problem.
Most new players roll Alliance and are inexperienced at bgs. This inexperience gets them and their team killed. After a while, they do become experienced, BUT by this time, they are so tired of losing because of newbies just like they used to be, they just reroll to Horde. No point in being punching bag for twinks.
I haven’t left Ally yet though and doubt I will. I’ve got a lvl 53 ret pally on Shandris. It’s my first toon that I’ve playing off/on for a period of about 8 months. I’ve never joined a guild either. If anything, I’ll respec to Holy and see if that helps out in bgs more. I’ll probably roll a rogue on a RP-PVP server if I get bored.
Alliance always loses BG’s because there are so many little kids who play on alliance. dont get me wrong but most of the people i met are kids who just want to be a gnome. pretty lame but w/e. and all alliance wants to do is just try and get kills. im sick of them always losing. we have no plan or n e thing.. idk im not switching horde cuz i hate them….if only alliance were in hordes shoes right now at BG’s.. ahh wudnt we all be happy then.
Level 54 Druid.
name is Zerocal on Stormscale alliance
Thanks for the article. Think I now know the history which explains the current BG performance by Horde.
Just wondering.. Draci, Zerocal.. were you guys actually trying to do BGs at level 53,54..?
IMHO, people who go into BGs wishing to contribute to winning should do so when their char’s level is near the top of their tiers (19, 29, etc).
I did a fair bit of AV as a 59-60 pally myself (earned exalted rep). When I saw level sub-58 players around then, I could only sigh…
Main thing is, which team has the healers. If you have a twinked or a really outstanding healer, that knows his/her job, then your pretty much invulnerable.
Premades are also a big winner, when you get 4 guildies to do a BG with you, you always stick with each other.
Main thing is PvP experience, and people who know how to play.
I have a 19 Hunter on Lightbringer, 800hp, 600 mana, and almost no agi increase (dealing 40-50s with autoshot), yet I can outpace twinked hunters and rogues, just becuase I know how to play the class.
For the main part, at 70, Healer + Warrior, way Overpowered
For instance, I was a BM hunter (70) and got into a solo with a priest. All she did was heal herself, nothing else, it took me about 3 min to take her down. (she never got in range to scream meh)
IMO nerf heals in BG’s to diminishing returns over certain time periods, or reinstate a LOT more powerful “team – evener”
For instance, a twink BG, a newbie BG.
Would be VERY hard to make though, but if Blizz did, I would love them more than my overpowered BM hunter ^^
Memes.
Really! Well, maybe in my battlegroup. There’s set ways to win each BG. EotS? Cap three towers, take centre and flag run. AB? Cap Farm, two others, hold and win. WSG? D on the flag, O gets other flag, repeat. AV is the only one where our meme is out of date – outzerg Alliance lolfail.
But naw, Horde PVP was born in that pre-BG crucible when Alliance readily trounced the Horde due to superior numbers. When you have to fight ten times as hard to stay alive even half as long, your skills get honed and in a hurry. Alliance were forging their own doom by sacking Tarren Mill over and over. When Blizzard introduced the Battleground system, suddenly there were a bunch of hardened PVP veterans out for blood, and what’s worse, the odds were *even*.
It’s really that back-to-the-wall, give-’er-hell martial spirit that’s the cause of the Alliance woes. Even today, (excluding PVP servers) every Horde knows he or she is going to have to fight like hell and eventually will bite the dust. Why? Simply because of the population imbalance. Most people’s first PVP experience is world PVP where that is true. But then you put them in BG’s with that mentality and without the numbers advantage?
Well, Here is what I have found in playing the BG’s for over a year now.
Although some of my post may be a bit blunt, I truly hope that people do read it and gain even just a little bit of knowledge from the experience of others. After all, I want to see Alliance win more in the BG’s too.
Alliance can / and does, win in the BG’s but not very often.
Here are 6 reasons Why we lose in BG’s, geared a little more towards Arathi Basin.
1) Alliance players just don’t listen.
Even when people do communicate the plan, nobody carries it out. Seems like too many Alliance want to be the hero and self attack a group of 4 horde… without a healer as backup. All we need to do is communicate the plan, which should come from the leader, and we all follow suit to win. When this happens, great results usually come. In real life, if an army wants to take out its enemy the first thing it tries to hit is the lines of communication. WE, as alliance, basically cut those lines ourselves by not listening to each other to support the team. In the process we strengthen the horde because of our own pride.
2) Too many low level players.
What is a lvl 60 warrior going to do against a lvl 69 hunter or mage? unless you are at least lvl 65, please do the Alliance a favor and stay out of BG’s, all you do is weaken the team.
Blizzard could help this with narrowing up the gap for each battleground (60 to 64 in one BG, then 65 to 69 for the next as an example)
3) Few healers.
Sometimes Alliance will get a couple good healers, but usually we are left to our own stamina pool. I don’t care how much dps you can do or what your crit rate% is, If the horde have 3 good healers in AB.. it is game over. And you know what? If Alliance have 3 good healers in AB, it is game over for Horde. I love the BG’s when we have good healers, we are unstoppable.
4) We don’t Kill the horde healers
Repeatedly the alliance will leave the horde healers alone, and try to down the dps horde… Do I really need to explain this one? Again, healers will make or break the session.
5) We don’t fight at the Nodes.
Yes being tops in Damage done or HK’s is a nice ego boost, but if your team continuously lose it will take forever to ramp up the honor points and badges, and we can’t win if we don’t take the node. Fight at the node to keep them distracted as to who is trying to sack it first, and to increase our chance of actually taking the node.
6) An incessant need to “Save the Stables” in AB
When the Stables are under attack so many alliance people will freak out with “Back to ST, Save ST… ” etc. etc.
Now, on the plus side, at least they are communicating so I don’t want to completely trash the comments. BUT, where I have the issue is that the alliance take this to a WHOLE ‘nother degree. Within 1 minute there are 10 alliance fighting to try and “Take back the Stables”
The Horde know this… they use it against us. Time and Time again if the horde take the ST, they will have at LEAST 2 solid healers to keep their guys alive there. We alliance turn from formidable dps foes, into chickens with twigs for fighting sticks. and after leaving our other nodes we were defending, the horde gobble them up without any problem.
It is JUST a node. It really is just a node, and if you do it right, you don’t even really need the Stables. Please see below.
How Alliance win at Arathi Basin? … Simple actually,
Grp 1 and 2 go directly to BS. Grp 3 Take LM, leave 1 member to take ST.
After this we will have 3 nodes right away, and then Keep pressing offense to Farm from both LM and BS.
DO NOT sit back and “Hold” 3 nodes. Keep Horde on Defense and do not let them get organized.
As soon as LM and BS are taken, 2 members max should go back to ST for Defense. This will place on Defence 3 at ST, then have 3 at LM and 4 at BS. All the rest Go offense and press Farm (the remaining 5)
This approach will lead to a possible 4 cap at different points in the game, and the horde will eventually become smart and move to Mine instead of trying to get Farm back… and they may press STables.. but they can be stopped between ST and BS. Horde may press LM, but they can be stopped by siphoning off folk from ST or Farm
whatever you do, do NOT lose BS.
The Blacksmith is essential to the win. I cannot stress that enough. Yes you can win using other attack formulations, but For continuous repeatable AB wins, the BS is essential. Think about it for a second, It has the best access to ST, LM and Farm and therefore, Offence and Defense can be quickly moved from BS to any of these 3 other nodes when under fire, in very short fashion.
Ensure you have a minimum 4 on D at BS after it is taken, preferably with 1 good healer. Remember to call out the incoming (“inc BS” for eg) so that the team knows who is in need… again, those communication lines.
When Alliance parties do this we will win over 80% of the time in AB. Everyone has to listen and communicate and not go negative on each other. Surprisingly enough, when we cap BS from the start, few people ever go negative. I think it is because of the good start we get off to and keep.
With Grp 1 and 2 going to BS straight out of the gate, that is 10 alliance to cap what is essentially the most critical node in the whole game. The horde are smart too though, and we will usually meet up with 5-6 of them there too. Just stun them, trap them and dps the heck out of healers first, and the rest will fall like dominoes.
More thoughts on AB
The Mine is a distraction. It is the hardest to gain access too and hardest to defend. Unless you have 1 great healer and 1 great dps that will sit back and hold… leave it.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I couldn’t agree more with everything you say, I play both sides of the fence so I see firsthand exactly what you are talking about.
1st of all, and this isn’t the only reason, but Horde characters have PVP racial abilities and alliance have PVE.
2nd of all, alliance doesn’t listen well and do not follow/create strategy. As those have mentioned before, ally doesn’t focus on healers, ally doesn’t come to aid assaulted marks until it is too late.
Majority of them that is, also. Ally are the “good guys” so most new comers and little kids with no patience, choose ally. Horde are for the more darker people or the seasoned veteran.
p.s. Don’t forget, horde have PVP racial abilities. Check em out. See for yourselves.
Totally agree I have a horde and alliance and my horde is played when I get tired of losing. Sort of breaks the constant loss. I have 3 of my merciless gladiator gear so I know I am improving but it is so long and drawnout compared to how the horde don’t spend near as much time and get the amazing gear. :*( One day maybe the glory will be there again in AV or even be there at all for the others.
Because of the statistics, horde has advantages against alliance: they win 80% of the bgs, so they farm PVP gear faster than allies, so they become well geared faster, and that helps wining more bgs…
I’v read so many forums about why alliance constantly loosing.
And i realized, that I just dont care about the reasons anymore.
Maybe there are more young ppl playing allie.
Maybe allies dont kill healers.
Maybe allies dont communicate.
So what a single allie player can do about it?
Nothing.
If you fail in PVE you can choose different teammates or even guild.
The only thing you can do against loosing in pug bg is to reroll horde.
Or stop doing BGs.
Or stop playing WoW.
I’ve got a lvl 70 NE druid (Tichondruis) atm, and due to continuous losses in BGs I’ve made a few Horde ‘toons as well. Well just from that experience I’ll say that the only difference I could tell between the two factions was the Horde grouped up more in BGs.
That’s it, both sides have whiny people and infighting, but oddly enough, Horde stick together more often. We didn’t actually communicate at all, but we unconsciously stick by one another, and we’d win more often.